Curse

DarrenJasper · Jun 14, 2005, 09:22 PM // 21:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Creston

You should HOPE that the PvE crowd doesn't move on, because then Anet won't be selling a whole lot of copies of that next expansion.

And without those expansions making money to pay for their servers, those servers will go down.

Creston

Oh please. The only thing you will affect is their profit margin - the servers aren't going anywhere.

AGH I promised I wouldn't post on this thread

Xight · Jun 14, 2005, 09:27 PM // 21:27

Your a liar then. =)

The game will still sell for a while, since it's the newest non-monthy pay rpg type game. That alone will have alot of people interested in it.

MontahcRemire · Jun 14, 2005, 10:21 PM // 22:21

Quote:

I'll agree with anyone on anything about runes being part of a build, right up until they say they are a requirement. Because lets face it, how many of us are in KOR or Fi? Members of either guild are excluded from this topic >:

Hi, I'm not a member of KOR or Fianna, so I get to argue right Mr.Sekkira?

Ok, First of all, the idea that you don't need an equal playing field to compete is the most convoluted thing I have ever heard. Let me break this game down for you.

Assume that all characters are at level 20 and have 200 attributes, because anyone can make a pvp character with said level/attributes. If you think this is an unfair assumption, stop reading because I'm not wasting my time.

Now all characters being at level 20 and 200 attributes is lovely, but the important part is the skills you play. Take any set of random players from all corners of the world and equip them with the same set of equipment and same skills with the same attributes. Now put those players to a series of tasks, and measure their outcomes. This is called standardized testing and we use it throughout the world as a fair standard of performance.

Now do the same thing, but half the players get an extra 70 attribute points.

Wait, wtf? Why did they get attribute points? Oh, runes = attribute points. So basically what you're saying is that if you are level 20 and have 200 attribute points its exactly the same as if you are level 20 and have 270 attribute points. huh?

But hey, lets get beyond that simple argument and get into the abstract, the complex, the advanced. There is a section of game theory that guild wars follows that I first noticed during the BWE's, but its not so surprising that guild wars follows it because guild wars is based on the game that made this theory famous. Its called the metagame theory and it became prevalent with Magic: The Gathering. Basically the metagame theory can be boiled down to this statement:

In a competitive environment, said environment consisting of the same attainable advantages and disadvantages, and the same choices for any given participant, the gameplay evolves in a predictable direction, but at a rate which is determined by the participants unconsciously.

If you got lost, I'll make it simpler. In an even environment the player determines the environment and how he/she plays it. If an illusionary weaponry build is the build of the week, rend enchantments will become more popular to deal with the need for enchantment removal. If people decide conditions are hot, more people play mend conditions.

This works fine when everything is even and equal, but guild wars is neither of those things right now. For Example: Assume that a build revolving around Hex stacking and Spike Damage are popular. You could go with fertile season, but that doesn't help the hexes. You could also try Convert Hexes, but Spike Damage is still a problem then. There is a great solution to this problem:

Spell Breaker {Elite} - Enchantment Spell
For 5-15 seconds, enemy spells targeted against target ally fail.

One Problem: Its an elite and its only in the very latest game. So now instead of pvping like you want to you have to go and capture it. What about guilds who don't have monks that ground their way past ascension? Well I suppose since they suck so bad they might as well not compete.

So now whats happened is that Arena.Net has created a game that follows the structure of the metagame theory, but removed the mechanism by which the theory works, i.e. the equality of the game. Now since the game is balanced to the high level pvp, and because the game relies on equality of choice, and because the equality of choice is screwed, the game is also screwed. Until A.Net fixes the game they will continue to hemorage players.

Good Game.

Evan The Cursed · Jun 14, 2005, 10:34 PM // 22:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius

And that's why I, a PvE'er, support UAS/UAR - I don't want bored, frustrated, speedlevelling, farming, PvP'ers in my group when I go on missions.

Thank you!

Loviatar · Jun 14, 2005, 11:31 PM // 23:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by MontahcRemire

Wait, wtf? Why did they get attribute points? Oh, runes = attribute points. So basically what you're saying is that if you are level 20 and have 200 attribute points its exactly the same as if you are level 20 and have 270 attribute points. huh?

.

would you mind telling me how you came up with a 70 attribute point difference?

PieXags · Jun 14, 2005, 11:40 PM // 23:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius

1) No, PvE'ers do not "lose out" with an UAS/UAR. How could they? The UAS/UAR only affects PvP characters. How does PvE'ers "lose out" or get "screwed over" by that?
The one thing is that it wont be a smart move to take your PvE build into PvP, it'll be smarter to make a special PvP build - in other words, exactly as it already is today.
I really don't see what you guys, Sekkira especially, are on about. Truly. How does everyone having access to UAS in PvP only mean that anyone gets screwed over or the game destroyed, when all it means is that everyone has the same chance?

2) No, PvP'ers do not get "screwed over" by PvE'ers at the moment. What it does mean, though, is that people solely interested in PvP have to play through the full PvE game at least three times, from scratch, if they want a reasonable chance to compete with all professions. This in turn leads to speedlevelling, grinding/farming, and much of the bad behaviour people complain about, because those PvP players don't want to play PvE and only want to complete the game and get the skills/runes they need as quickly as humanly possible. How can anyone expect someone doing the mission for the 15th time to help noobs, do bonus missions they've already done, or continue the mission once they got (or missed!) the skill/rune they've been looking for?

And that's why I, a PvE'er, support UAS/UAR - I don't want bored, frustrated, speedlevelling, farming, PvP'ers in my group when I go on missions.

(And could we PLEASE drop the frankly stupid argument that "everything is exactly as the developers wanted so suck it down".)

Did you read any of my posts? Or any of Sekkira's posts? PURE PvE characters wouldn't be affected by it, you're right. Pure PvP characters would get what they wanted. The people that get screwed are the ones who enjoy BOTH. People should NOT have to make a PvP character to compete in PvP. That's only playing half the game. People SHOULD get rewarded for bringing their PvE characters into PvP because this means they're playing through the ENTIRE game, not just half of it.

The way the game was created, it was INTENDED for PvE characters to be brought into PvP. And for those who didn't want to, they could only play the PvP half. They DID say that PvP characters would have to go through PvE to unlock extra things, and they do, because people who like BOTH have to go through it as well. Do you understand what I'm getting at? Sekkira already said this and explained it very well.

If you're assuming that people play either only PvP or PvE then you're right, nobody gets screwed over. But for those who play all of the game---THEY are the ones who get screwed in the matter, they feel cheated when they bring their PvE characters into PvP---and they should NOT have to create a PvP character just to compete and take up slots on their bar. What's that? You say PvP characters have to create PvE characters? Well at least they're not wasting slots on their bar because you CAN bring PvE characters into PvP, but not the other way around.

The PvE people don't get screwed or cheated by it. The PvP people either. The people who enjoy playing ALL of the game, are the ones who get cheated by the UAS/UAR.

Now...just one more question. You people keep complaining about having to go unlock Elites and Superior runes...

Why the HELL do you think they're called ELITE skills? Why do you think they're called "superior"? It's because you have to WORK for them. They wouldn't BE elite if you just got them from the start! You SHOULD have to work to get elite skills.

And don't tell me going out to get elites isn't work or skill-involved, when someone above just when and said "farming" takes skill.

The Pope · Jun 15, 2005, 12:15 AM // 00:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loviatar

would you mind telling me how you came up with a 70 attribute point difference?

A superior rune adds +3 to an attribute. Assuming the attribute costs follow the pattern (9-10 costs 13, 10-11 costs 16, 11-12 costs 20), it would cost 25+31+37 = 93 AP. So he was actually underestimating the advantage of a superior.

Weezer_Blue · Jun 15, 2005, 12:47 AM // 00:47

I enjoy both PvP and PvE. I don't see where I'm getting screwed. The only possible thing you're getting screwed on is this: If you have 4 RP characters, then you are put at the disadvantage of having to grind to keep up in PvP. But guess what? That's already true. The only other thing that you could possibly be complaining about is that you are not getting your reward for playing both of them. "I play a lot of PvE, shouldn't I get an advantage in PvP?". No. You shouldn't. It's supposed to be a perfectly level playing field. It was pretty damn close during the beta (runes still sucked).

Loviatar · Jun 15, 2005, 12:52 AM // 00:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Pope

A superior rune adds +3 to an attribute. Assuming the attribute costs follow the pattern (9-10 costs 13, 10-11 costs 16, 11-12 costs 20), it would cost 25+31+37 = 93 AP. So he was actually underestimating the advantage of a superior.

thank you

i would also like to know the ACTUAL difference between the effect of a superior rune compared to a major rune considering the following

several people have stated there is a deminishing return above 12

specificially 12 to 13 gives less than 11 to 12 and 13 to 14 gives even less of an increase with the same for 14 to 15 and 15 to 16

based on that has anybody actually found out the REAL difference between a superior and a major rune?

not trying for a flamefest as i actually would like to know for my own future reference

only if you know and have the actual numbers to show as all i know is it is less than 1 (15 to 16 minus x)

edit

in this case between major at 15 (headgear plus +2 rune)
and superior at 16 (headgear plus +3 rune)

maybe Ensign would have the answer?

PieXags · Jun 15, 2005, 12:54 AM // 00:54

You're wrong, it is NOT supposed to be a "perfect level playing field" between bare-bones PvP characters and those who went through PvE.

It said on their webpage, that those who went through PvE would get extra bonuses. It said you could use PvP characters to be COMPETITIVE, and you CAN. You might not WIN all the time, but you can be COMPETITIVE, is the thing so long as your skill level is up to it. It might be more difficult than having all the runes and elites---this is true, but you CAN win, and you CAN have some good battles. If it ever gets down to the point where ONE superior rune decides the difference between loss and defeat, then you WERE competitive, you just didn't win. And it said, from the beginning, that PvE characters would be able to unlock different things.

Something people don't seem to understand is that it isn't SUPPOSED to be entirely level, where everyone has access to everything because then you'd be rewarding people who only play half the game. Those who play ALL of the game, should by all means have access to certain differences.

PvE and PvP are supposed to be linked in this game. If you only play on half the playing field, you're not going to get the full thing. Plain and simple. This doesn't mean you can't be competitive and that you can't give teams a run for their money, it means that those who play both PvE and PvP---the whole game, will obviously get a perk having experienced the entire thing. Is this wrong? Maybe. But that's Guild Wars. It's like in most any other game, you beat it and get everything, and you unlock something exclusive. Because you didn't just beat the game, you went out and got it all.

The way it is right now it rewards those who play both PvP and PvE, how do we know this? Because the only place you can tell the perks PvE characters get is in PvP, showing that they've played both. Those who only play PvE, sure they can still get the things, but they aren't a big perk anywhere other than in PvP so it doesn't matter.

Why does it cheat PvE characters who also play PvP?

Because the PvE characters just went through PvE, and they then go into PvP and find that they're just as strong if not stronger with the UAS/UAR button they got. They feel cheated because they then think "Wait a minute, I just played through PvE, and now I'm going through PvP. I'm playing all of the game, this guy only played it for 5 minutes! I actually played the whole game while this guy's limiting himself to only half of it, what's up with that?"

That's where the UAS/UAR causes problems.

Weezer_Blue · Jun 15, 2005, 01:00 AM // 01:00

So in other words, PvEers want an unfair advantage over PvPers because they played longer. Thanks that clears up a lot.

If I recall, the box says "victory through skill not hours played". A.Net needs to give us a strait answer. Do they want this game to be level or not? If not, I'm probably leaving, because I don't have the time to get owned by someone cause they've played 1,000,000 hours farming more than I have. You say "PvPers *can* compete". Well... any idiot can compete. I can pull at a paladin premade and "compete". Does that mean I can win? No. It's not worth competing if you have no hope of victory.

The Pope · Jun 15, 2005, 01:12 AM // 01:12

The earning unfair advantages argument is like saying you deserve godmode because you bothered to type it in. Well, I guess I can respect someone who can just stand up and say they want to cheat rather than just spouting self righteous jibberish.

Xight · Jun 15, 2005, 01:22 AM // 01:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loviatar

thank you

i would also like to know the ACTUAL difference between the effect of a superior rune compared to a major rune considering the following

several people have stated there is a deminishing return above 12

specificially 12 to 13 gives less than 11 to 12 and 13 to 14 gives even less of an increase with the same for 14 to 15 and 15 to 16

based on that has anybody actually found out the REAL difference between a superior and a major rune?

not trying for a flamefest as i actually would like to know for my own future reference

only if you know and have the actual numbers to show as all i know is it is less than 1 (15 to 16 minus x)

edit

in this case between major at 15 (headgear plus +2 rune)
and superior at 16 (headgear plus +3 rune)

maybe Ensign would have the answer?

Is there really a dimishing return on how it affects the skill or just the fact that those points are better used elsewhere. Instead of raising your skill to 16 in a certain stat only raise it to 10 and use a supperior rune for 10+3 and a helm+major for another 13. Then use the points you saved from using runes to put it into a 3rd skill set. Rather then have an extra 9 damage, per spell or something have an entirely different spell line do close to it's max damage(one that targets people who try to counter your first build type). Guess it's your back up, back up spell in case your first and second attacks get nullified somehow.

Only thing is this type of setup is only available to people who unlock runes, since without them your attributes only go up to like 10 in each or something.

Kishin · Jun 15, 2005, 01:31 AM // 01:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loviatar

thank you

i would also like to know the ACTUAL difference between the effect of a superior rune compared to a major rune considering the following

several people have stated there is a deminishing return above 12

specificially 12 to 13 gives less than 11 to 12 and 13 to 14 gives even less of an increase with the same for 14 to 15 and 15 to 16

based on that has anybody actually found out the REAL difference between a superior and a major rune?

not trying for a flamefest as i actually would like to know for my own future reference

only if you know and have the actual numbers to show as all i know is it is less than 1 (15 to 16 minus x)

maybe Ensign would have the answer?

Here we go. Here's a couple random examples.

Lightning Orb
12 Air (Max) : 82 Damage
13 Air (Max + Hat): 88 Damage
14 Air (Min + Hat): 94 Damage
15 Air (Maj + Hat): 100 Damage
16 Air (Sup + Hat): 106 Damage

They all yield a 6 point increase, and its an 18 point difference between Max + Hat and Sup + Hat, which is significant.

Mend Condition
12 Protection (Max): 57 per remaining Condition
13 Protection (Max + Hat): 61 per remaining Condition
14 Protection (Min + Hat): 66 per remaining Condition
15 Protection (Maj + Hat): 70 per remaining Condition
16 Protection (Sup + Hat): 74 per remaining condition

Steady 4 point increase, except from 13-14, where you get a 5 point jump.

Alright, now, to try it with a Hex.

Guilt
12 Domination: 9 second duration, 12 energy stolen
13 Domination: 9 second duration, 13 energy stolen
14 Domination: 10 second duration, 13 energy stolen
15 Domination: 10 second duration, 14 energy stolen
16 Domination: 11 second duration, 14 energy stolen

Not so much a big impact here. Basically, increase of one every other level in either category.

Another Hex.

Shadow of Fear
12 Curses: 39 second duration
13 Curses: 41 second duration
14 Curses: 42 second duration
15 Curses: 44 second duration
16 Curses: 45 second duration

A bit more significant, I suppose. Flip flops in a similar pattern as Guilt.

Ok, only two more, I promise.

Galrath Slash
12 Swordsmanship: +32 Damage
13 Swordsmanship: +35 Damage
14 Swordsmanship: +37 Damage
15 Swordsmanship: +40 Damage
16 Swordmanship: +42 Damage

And lastly, a Nature Ritual.

Fertile Season
12 Beastmastery: Level 8 Spirit, +474 Health, +24 armor, 78 second duration
13 Beastmastery: Level 9 Spriit, +509 Health, +24 armor, 78 second duration
14 Beastmastery: Level 9 Spirit, +548 Health, +24 armor, 86 second duration
15 Beastmastery: Level 10 Spirit, +580 Health, +24 armor, 90 second duration
16 Beastmastery: Level 10 Sprit, +615 Health, +24 armor, 100 second duration

Now there's a hugely significant different. The Health jump from 12 to 13 is +35, then its +39 to 14, +32 to 15, and +35 again to 16. The duration's first increase is +4, the second +10. So here, we see a huge impact as a result of rune usage.

Make what you will of the data. In the end, though, it seems, higher skill levels have a greater effect on skills that involve damage/healing/bonus variables than on skills that apply durational conditions, which only pick up a few more seconds of life (Which they probably won't even see, if the other team's condition remover is doing his job). Still, with the staggering increase of power Fertile Season gets, and the fact that an Air Elementalist sees about a 20% increase in damage output in going from 12 to 16 in Lightning Orb, and the 20-25% damage of Galrath Slash the warrior sees from 12 to 16 Swordmanship, the significance and impact of runes is pretty obvious. Those increases are nothing to sneeze at, and do make a difference.

As far as diminishing returns go, getting the same benefit you received at previous for a greater cost could be called that, but I would only apply that if you were paying attribute point costs. Runes, however, are items, and a whole different matter entirely.

PieXags · Jun 15, 2005, 02:26 AM // 02:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weezer_Blue

So in other words, PvEers want an unfair advantage over PvPers because they played longer. Thanks that clears up a lot.

If I recall, the box says "victory through skill not hours played". A.Net needs to give us a strait answer. Do they want this game to be level or not? If not, I'm probably leaving, because I don't have the time to get owned by someone cause they've played 1,000,000 hours farming more than I have. You say "PvPers *can* compete". Well... any idiot can compete. I can pull at a paladin premade and "compete". Does that mean I can win? No. It's not worth competing if you have no hope of victory.

To quote the box we've got "You'll prove your worth with every battle as skill, not hours played, decides your fate."

You do prove your worth with skill by all means, if you pick up a premade character and have a good battle, you prove that you're about at their skill level, you just might not have been able to win.

And to touch on "PvEers want an unfair advantage of PvPers because they played longer".

NO. This is not the case by any means. Anyone can walk around Old Ascalon for 200+ hours and say that they deserve more over the PvPers if that were the case.

And quit saying "PvEers". It is NOT PvE people who you should be concerned about because they STICK TO PVE. It's people who play and enjoy BOTH. Not "PvEers".

And it is not because they played longer, and it is not an "unfair" advantage. It is by all means a FAIR advantage. They EARNED the advantage by doing the missions, the quests, and by putting the time and effort into getting the elites and runes. That can't be summed up into "played longer". They EARNED the right to bring that into PvP by playing the ENTIRE game all the way through, and unlocking it all.

They said skill decides your fate---and it DOES. It just might not be ALL that decides your fate. A loophole? Possibly. But that's not what I'm here to discuss.

If you want to pick up the game and skip the PvE portion of the game, by all means go ahead. You might miss out on some of the benefits that those who play through the entire game get, but that's just how things go.

=================================

On another note.

Don't get me wrong, do I think the current system is flawed? Yes, by all means. I understand the frustration PvPers feel about how long it takes to unlock all the, even normal skills. You still don't even get those on a PvP character, you have to go through PvE, with many different characters, spending a lot of time just to unlock the NORMAL skills. And that just plain stinks for those who don't enjoy PvE.

I do think that those who go through every part of the game should have a benefit---but the benefit that they have right now is too extreme.

I'd say that if you made it so that only elites/superior runes were exclusive to PvE, then it would be alright. Because then it would reward those who went through the entire game, without giving them an advantage that is so drastically unfair.

If PvP characters had all the normal skills and all but superior runes (or all but a few superior runes like vigor, which are insanely hard to get even for PvE characters), then that would even things out. PvP characters would have much more room to explore build options and attribute points, and so on and so forth, without giving PvE characters such a huge advantage at all. Elites---they're elite for a reason. And the difference between a major and superior rune isn't very much.

The system is flawed, but giving PvP characters every skill and every rune with the push of a button, isn't the way to go about fixing it.

Weezer_Blue · Jun 15, 2005, 02:35 AM // 02:35

The point is, all other things being equal, the team with the most runes or skills resulting in the best build win. How is that skill?

The Pope · Jun 15, 2005, 03:24 AM // 03:24

Coding an aimbot is closer to real skill than unlocking upgrades.

NiknudStunod · Jun 15, 2005, 03:29 AM // 03:29

This is really a dead horse issue and us pvpers are beating it bloody. I have already moved to another game and everyone that agrees that there should be a UAS button should also move on.

This game not only targeted mmo fans but also fpser's. I logged in today for the first time since the first 2 weeks of may and noticed alot less people then when I was playing, specially in HOH. You will not see any major changes until they release a expansion and if it doesn't sell near as well as the game. While posting on boards and asking for changes is easy to do it seldom works. The best way to get a point across to a gaming company is through there wallets.

Ardus Shadowmane · Jun 15, 2005, 03:44 AM // 03:44

Ah, yet another UAS thread. How wonderful. All things being equal, the side with better runes/etc. wins? That seems logical to me. Two sides go to war and the side that practiced and trained does better than the side that just decides it's an army? Yup, that makes sense too.

And how many of these threads do we need anyway? Seriously guys, if a dead horse were to be flogged anymore than this, it'd be glue by now!

MontahcRemire · Jun 15, 2005, 04:07 AM // 04:07

As to the question of why we are still here? Because this is our game. We came here seeking refuge from all the asinine MMORPG's and stupid CS players. This game is intelligent PvP. It is complex and it is wonderful.

And Most of All It Was STOLEN FROM US.

This game was advertised as low/no grind. My first character took 80 hours to get up to level 20 with moderate skills and equipment. The worst part is: I got RUSHED THERE. Thats like saying I cheated at poker and drew nothing.

We've tried, ok. We have tried. I have watched agony diminish from one of the most competitive groups in guild wars to people who barely log on. We've had the most players on recently that we've had since release. But do you know why that is? Gunz Online. Yeah, I said it. Its more fun and it rewards people for doing what they want.

Really thats what this is about. When we get rewarded for doing pvp the way the game is DESIGNED then we'll be happy, until then we will bitch and moan till theres no tomorrow. I will not move on to another game but drag this one down kicking and screaming because it could have been so good.

This was the silver bullet to save us from idiocy, and carebears have sodomized it and made it their plaything. Thats what this is about. I want my Game Back. I want all skills. I want either all the runes or runes to be abolished. I WANT EQUALITY AND I WANT IT NOW. I want it sooner than now. I want it last week when agony still played guild wars. We are sick and we are tired and we are angry and this was everyone's game that got turned into only the MMORPG'ers game. If you don't understand then learn. If you don't agree because you don't need it then let us plead our case. The only coherent argument I have heard is preference, and thats no real argument.

I want guild wars back from the carebears.